Evolution in Software: What Has Changed Since GOOS? • Nat Pryce & Duncan McGregor • GOTO 2025

This interview was recorded for GOTO Unscripted. #GOTOcon #GOTOunscripted https://gotopia.tech Read the full transcription of this interview here: https://gotopia.tech/articles/364 Nat Pryce - Co-Author of “Growing Object­-Oriented Software Guided by Tests” & “Java to Kotlin” @NatPryce Duncan McGregor - Co-Author of "Java to Kotlin" & Independent Consultant @PairingWithDuncan RESOURCES Nat https://mastodon.social/@natpryce https://github.com/npryce https://x.com/natpryce https://www.linkedin.com/in/natpryce http://www.natpryce.com Duncan https://twitter.com/duncanmcg https://www.linkedin.com/in/duncan-mcgregor-a3038b6 https://github.com/dmcg http://www.oneeyedmen.com https://java-to-kotlin.dev Links https://www.meetup.com/extreme-tuesday-club-xtc https://guava.dev/releases/21.0/api/docs/com/google/common/base/Function.html https://youtu.be/48g7CRlMUD8 https://youtu.be/WazqgfsO_kY https://youtu.be/yuEbZYKgZas https://youtu.be/Saaz6D1azlU https://youtu.be/sLjSGrkbIFw https://youtu.be/KB95k0Y9Tsc https://youtu.be/P7CfWtR-ECk https://youtu.be/klqo1oPdbpM https://youtu.be/VLUvfIm9wnQ https://youtu.be/j2AQ9eTZ3-0 https://youtu.be/D43PlUr1x_E https://youtu.be/htIXKI5gOQU https://youtu.be/0if71HOyVjY https://youtu.be/6ndAWzc2F-I https://youtu.be/3n17wHe5wEw https://youtu.be/pfinplXtrkA https://youtu.be/VX3UBvwJtyA https://youtu.be/7NAyn1DC420 https://youtu.be/_ZvwRJnSsQ4 https://youtu.be/bzDAYlpSbrM https://youtu.be/mUTx61t443A DESCRIPTION This conversation between Duncan McGregor and Nat Pryce explores the legacy of Nat's co-authored book "Growing Object-Oriented Software, Guided by Tests" (GOOS) and how software development practices have evolved in the past 15 years. They discuss the origins of test-driven development (TDD) within London's Extreme Tuesday Club, the shift from object-oriented to functional programming paradigms, and how changing technology has influenced development approaches. Key topics include outside-in vs bottom-up testing strategies, mock objects, the rise of microservices, and whether modern development practices have actually improved productivity. The conversation provides valuable historical context for understanding current software development trends while questioning whether some modern practices represent true progress. TIMECODES 00:00 Intro 01:14 Growing Object-Oriented Software (GOOS) 04:25 The Extreme Tuesday Club & XP 07:32 Developer-led agile vs Management-led agile 13:42 Outside-in TDD vs Bottom-up TDD 17:32 Mock objects & testing techniques 23:38 Changes in SW development in the last 15 years 41:31 Outro RECOMMENDED BOOKS Duncan McGregor & Nat Pryce • Java to Kotlin • https://amzn.to/4apSjLu Steve Freeman & Nat Pryce • Growing Object-Oriented Software (GOOS) • https://amzn.to/41Fp7wM Uberto Barbini • From Objects to Functions • https://amzn.to/4cMDOmH Saleem Siddiqui • Learning Test-Driven Development • https://amzn.to/35OMb3n Roy Osherove • The Art of Unit Testing • https://bit.ly/3obiKNB Trisha Gee & Helen Scott • Getting to Know IntelliJ IDEA • https://amzn.to/3ZBgnGc Vaughn Vernon & Tomasz Jaskula • Strategic Monoliths & Microservices • https://amzn.to/3AcUscj https://bsky.app/profile/gotocon.com https://twitter.com/GOTOcon https://www.linkedin.com/company/goto- https://www.instagram.com/goto_con https://www.facebook.com/GOTOConferences #GOOS #OOtoFP #OOvsFP #XP #ExtremeProgramming #ExtremeTuesdayClub #TDD #UnitTesting #Kotlin #TestDrivenDevelopment #SoftwareArchitecture #Microservices #Monolith #MonolithToMicroservices #Change #DuncanMcGregor #NatPryce CHANNEL MEMBERSHIP BONUS Join this channel to get early access to videos & other perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs_tLP3AiwYKwdUHpltJPuA/join Looking for a unique learning experience? Attend the next GOTO conference near you! Get your ticket at https://gotopia.tech Sign up for updates and specials at https://gotopia.tech/newsletter SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHANNEL - new videos posted almost daily. https://www.youtube.com/user/GotoConferences/?sub_confirmation=1